As soon as the “staff” puts something out there that isn’t a rehash of the same ‘ole thing, I’ll be there 100%. Until then, I’ve other things to spend my energy on. You see that is the question we have to ask when it comes to cooperation. What are we doing within the cooperation?

I remember a conversation I had with the previous ED, Dr. Wade about church planting and giving money to struggling churches. I can’t remember it word for word, but it basically said this: Why give money to churches that do things in a way that continues to not reach their community; simply because it is a long standing tradition to do so? When, on the other hand, we can put money into new church starts that are doing their dead level best, to try anything and everything to reach their community? That was a moment of clarity for me. I’ll partner with anyone, assuming that we are 1) headed in the same direction, and 2) using a methodology that isn’t insanity. (note: Insanity here is defined by doing something over and over again expecting a different result.)

Can Dave and Tim partner to reach their community for Christ? You Bet’chya! However, if the methodology is diametrically opposed, then aren’t we just setting each other up for a fair amount of grief? Yes, you know it.

Tim

Additionally, Tim gets to partner with David, and together they get to partner with several thousand other like-hearted Texas Baptists and other evangelical believers to stop the very real downward trend by leading UP, not letting anything discourage them or stand in the way! Working as a team to the extent possible, Tim and David and the rest will solve the spiritual problems (e.g., revival) via spiritual means and the administrative problems (e.g., declining buildings) via administrative means. Together, we’ll lovingly “throw the kitchen sink” at the 12 million unsaved fellow-citizens of Texas until they just can’t stand not having what they clearly see we have in Jesus and ask us how they can get that kind of life, too!

Again, I think you can speak with the BGCT’s staff about these things and get the answers you’re looking for (isn’t that right, staff?–anyone there reading this blog thread?); I think that staff is like a race horse just waiting for the gate to open! I talked to Ed Stetzer (www.edstetzer.com) a couple of weeks ago at Sunday School Week; in Texas, he recommends Milfred Minatrea as an extremely capable resource person–and I totally agree with Ed! (www.missional.org for contacting Milfred)

It’s an exciting time to be a blood-bought, born-again, serious-minded, loving follower of Jesus Christ–and a very important time for leaders to lead. If Texas Baptists must choose to lead, follow, or get out of the way, then we should choose “lead”! Go get ‘em, brother, in your town!

Yep, we’ve talked a little bit about this before. Thanks for pointing out Lifeway, but I’ve yet to find anything really relevant to where our churches are going, coming out of any publishing house at the moment.

As I recall, I did offer a few “getting down to business” ideas. The foremost being, finding the churches (Like Northwood), and having them mentor us. What they are doing you aren’t going to find in a curriculum. There are other churches out there, not all Baptist, that can be learned from…but they are in the minority.

Along other areas, like becoming less dependent upon buildings, I’m not so sure that we have a choice about that. As churches continue to decline, they simply can’t financially keep things going. Most of the ones I’ve seen (in between Houston and Fort Worth) have buildings in such bad shape that they are hard to sell for what the people think the buildings are worth. Frankly, the overhead is killer and the buildings stopped being an asset a long time ago.

But, what if this happened: A congregation meets for worship in a community center, built and donated by the congregation to the community. They can use it for their worship services, and it can be used to bless the community during the rest of the week. Thats better than having a large building that is only used 10% of the time.

About ministers going bi-vo…again, we may not have much of a choice in that matter. With more churches dying, there won’t be as many available pulpits/positions that pay a livable wage. We will have to have second and third jobs to just survive.

I agree that the “message” of Christ is a wonderful thing, and is relevant to ever generation. However, I seriously doubt about the way we package that message. I have serious reservations about how we are living out that message…Ok, to be honest we aren’t living it out at all. If we were, we wouldn’t have such a hateful reputation as Baptists. It became about the institution of the church a long time ago, and the message of the Kingdom became synonymous with that. Church growth is not the message of Christ.

Tim Dahl

Haven’t you and I dialoged about this topic before? At some point, the wondering if and “what about” must end and the “getting down to business” must begin.

My belief (but I’m willing for someone to prove me wrong through practice): nothing about the world has so changed during the past 500 years that people won’t still respond to loving messages from God’s people–yes, delivered in relevant ways–to know him; and, until God makes people differently than He has for all of human history, His church still has a chance. If it’s the “relevant ways” part that’s the key, it appears that it’s just enough contextual that no one can answer that question for your church but your church.

If your congregation isn’t very interested in a buying 15-passenger van annually but letting it sit on the dealer’s lot never to be driven in ministry, then the church also probably wouldn’t like realizing that it spends about as much money on the resource people who can help answer the questions it has about how to experience fully the biblical growth God has planned for it–but never asks them to do so. Phone those resource people today then, and put them to work for you (BGCT Bible study staff, evangelism division employees, Congregational Strategists, etc.)!

I appreciate what you’re doing–and asking–Tim! Also, see: http://www.lifeway.com/adultstrategy (for latest church health/growth info from LifeWay Research).

No, not at all. We’ve been doing the same thing for the past 50-40 years (with relatively few exceptions), and we’ve around 4000 churches (nationally) closing per year.

“We’d be back to most of it after a while. Efficiency and effectiveness–not to mention God’s will. Probably more relevancy than it appears.”

You make many assumptions here, most of all that such things as the traditions and institutions founded in the early 20th century are God’s will universally and infinitely.

“My take on it all: intrinsic motivation; your congregation and mine don’t have enough of it to sustain the evangelistic ministry we sometimes can talk them into doing.”

Maybe that is part of the problem. Many people still see the church, and the ministry therein, through outdated lenses. We’re going toward a more wholistic form of church, one that will look less like the 1950-60s. The way it is happening, is that the vast majority of our irrelevant institutions (the 4000 that are closing their doors annually), and being replaced by more fluid organisms. Sure, its been said that our churches are organisms, not organizations…but, they’ve been institutions in every sense of the word since WWII.

In the end, the proof is in the pudding. The churches are still dying, and fewer and fewer people are willing to go into the pastorate to try to save them. We’re the Swiss trying to make old world watches in a Seiko world.

Tim

My take on it all: intrinsic motivation; your congregation and mine don’t have enough of it to sustain the evangelistic ministry we sometimes can talk them into doing.

Dare I say that TU wasn’t as successful as some would have us believe? Perhaps I shouldn’t. The reason for the continued death of our churches isn’t because of the fearless, always improvising, cutting edge aspect of them. Perhaps it is time we admit that things really are different, and trying the same old thing over and over again still won’t get different/better results.

Instead, lets name a couple of churches, like Northwood for instance, and see what they have to teach us. We’ll use whatever money is left over (after we’ve paid off the thief), to sponsor groups (mostly laity) to train at these churches. Then, we implement what we learn. We invest in our community, without corrupting our service with the expectation of gaining members out of it. Every church doing Kid’s Hope, with everyone understanding that it isn’t so their church can get more members.

Lets exegete the culture that surrounds our churches, and use appropriate worship styles. We’ll still have a good diversity of styles; but we’re almost guaranteed that our personal churches will change.

Lets sell some of our buildings, and use multi-purpose buildings instead. Ditch Sunday School, and go to home groups. The overhead of all this land/buildings is killing us and offers opportunity for to much conflict. Lets prove that the “Church” isn’t constituted of the “4 walls,” shall we?

Lets find ways for individual churches to invest for the long term, internationally. Lets not farm out the ministry any more, but instead bring it back to the people. People working out of their giftedness, out of their talents, and using those gifts in strategic ways both at home and abroad.

Finally, all ministers get to go bi-vo. Working out in the world is how are people are dispersed into it. We should join them, no? We should be around non-Christians to, no? God uses the church in the diaspora. Why do we want to be so insular and isolated?

No? Yes?

Tim Dahl